Subject for debate?.

Power is intoxicating and I for one appreciate and cherish it, although regrettably it has led us to none sustainable demand as it has become available to an ever increasing audience.
Whether we like it or not, and whether controlled by man (government) or natural processes, the current use of hydrocarbon fuels will have to stop increasing.

Europe has been leading the way. There are now signs that the USA administration is beginning to act. Expect CO2 or similar emissions to become the subject of taxation (to a greater extent than at present) since this raises lots of money whilst at the same time finding a more "sustainable" balance between "Desire" and "Need".

At the end of the day money dictates everything and if the desire for power (performance/refinement) is so great we can expect the development and maturity of alternative solution(s) and a reduction in the number of "miles" driven.

JFI an interesting example is "anti-noise" which can potentially reduce vehicle weight by a significant amount (removal of sound insulation) whilst maintaining, or even improving, perceived refinement. Audi and others are active in this area.
Basically your audio system listens to the noise inside the car and plays back an equal and opposite signal so you ears hear nothing!
This technology is also beginning to be developed for suspension so that bumps can be smoothed out BEFORE they occur by observing the carriageway ahead of the wheels etc etc.

We are only about 2 years away from mainstream electric cars from the likes of Mercedes and others. They are responding to the "writing on the wall".
Whether the change will be over 2 years, 10 or 20 remains to be seen.

I'll take cover at this point.

Stuart

IMHO Hybrid technology (Prius and others) is a distraction. Too little improvement at too great a cost!

 

Stuart, If anyone wants to understand how the business world really works, then you follow the 'money trail'. Corporations that make cars only respond in 'bottom line' mentality, although their advertising may indicate that they're really helping the planet and going 'green'.

There have been prototype cars using alternative fuels that have as much 'zoom factor' as the worlds best supercars. But there's more to it than that for us males. Feel & handling of the car, the motor rumbling along at performance speeds, ergodynamics and appearance all come into play, just to name a few. There's been a fair number of 'green car' efforts out there. Most males won't touch them with a ten foot pole. Face the reality, we've been indoctrinated with the 'zoom factor' since we first pushed that rad Hot Wheel car across the floor. I'm a ***** to it and will freely admit it.

With good conscience, green cars are what ALL of us should be considering. But what if synthetic gas was made cheap enough and reformulated to run in all cars with substantially reduced hydrocarbons? We're not getting the real picture here of what is possible, or what the oil companies are willing to do. Oil companies were started and run by good ol' boys. There's a commercial on TV right now (US) with a good ol' boy, wild-cat oil type who is promoting alternative fuel designs. Either he's found religion for his sins or he sees great money potential in the future-enough so that he can now change horses. Of course I don't know him personally, but I have trouble with his motives and credibility.

I'm not discounting what your saying, but the truth lies in the '***** tingling factor' and what most men will really buy and be proud to drive. Like I said before, it takes a 'green mentality' taught to our children and then they have to grow up and have purchasing power. I'd say we're probably two generations from that if we started teaching nothing but 'green' right now. For me, a ***** to the 'zoom factor', it better go like a bat out of hell, make some noise, handle and give me '***** tingle factor' or forget it. At least I'm being honest here, is everyone else or are we just using 'green speak' to appear trendy and belie how we really feel about autos?
Kevin

 

Kevin,
Afraid you appewar to miss my point.

I also belong to the petrolhead camp or Zoom Addict as you put it but you will not be able to pursue your desires in the (near) future due to taxation IMPOSED on you whether you like it or not, because of GLOBAL CARBON targets.

The USA has done a good job of side stepping the issue so far but things are changing!
Watch this spot. Thought this had already appeared as an election issue?

Biofuel does what you suggest but the administration have now discovered that it impacts world food prices and Europe is starting to back-pedal.

Hydrogen / electric is the way forward and yes this can give amazing performance but at a cost and weight (reduction of unnecessary) will very quickly become mega important.

Aluminium/plastic body panels and aluminium/plastic/composite suspension parts etc are already widespread.

Just my 6 cents!

IMHO The USA in particular is headed for further (culture) shocks. Gas price increases is just the front of the tsunami

Stuart

 

Stuart,
I didn't miss the fact that you too are a 'zoomhead' at heart. However, you're saying that we're going to be forced to go 'green'. Maybe in big city commutes here, but realize something about the US male; We all at heart, have a wild west mentality. How we deal with that mentality illustrates, I guess, how civilized we are and what we eventually purchase as males.


California, which is and has always been the most EPA restrictive state in the nation, also has the most kick-*** all out, *****-to the-walls autos ever custom made. It's also a haven for people to take factory cars and tweak them endlessly-if it ain't been done in CA, then it ain't been thought of yet. No government or residing body is going to be able to kill this spirit within us...not guilt factor, not higher gas prices, not anything but kids who are brought up and taught 'green' while the rest of us die out...period. Car shows for exotic and muscle cars have never been bigger, although they're not driving their beasts as much. First thing most males do when they buy the car of their dreams here is figure how to make it handle better and go faster


Detroit and foreign auto companies always go after the male market with a vengeance. Sure, they can start a commercial campaign with some guy at the beach puttering around in his little 'green' friendly car having 'fun', but the majority of males here will laugh and say, Look at that geek and that stupid little car! Mini Coopers for example, are huge here, but only if they look and sound like race cars. A few yrs back, auto makers thought that if they made a hybrid with enough hp, they'd win male converts. I'm not saying that's faulty logic, but where are those cars?


Society's citizens let themselves be forced into mindsets, sometimes that's a good thing and sometimes it's just apathy that takes a poor direction. I can see 'green' being forced and trendy in Northern Europe, but it ain't gonna happen here in my lifetime to the degree it will take hold over there. Lobbyists in our Congress literally dictate what the lawmakers do. Gore and his 'green team' bunch don't have enough clout yet to eliminate the gas, internal combustion engine, although they wish to. It's a mindset here that will die VERY slowly, if at all. Conversely, there will be lobbyists at some point to defend our right to have gas cars, once they are legitimately targeted for destruction. For example, there were a couple of states in the past that started to round up old cars (muscle cars included) and compact them to recycled steel. A lobbyist group got together with enough signatures and stopped this wholesale action. Individual states here are always a wild card. The Federal government is always reluctant to step in and force a state to undo the its legislative made laws.....up to a point of course. In spite of what you've heard, you're not going to see Montana require its citizens to form militias anytime soon.;-).

Anyway, point being that the gas, internal combustion engine is alive and well. Also, you're forgetting about all the RV people here who have those big gas guzzling monsters. A lot of those people are retired and nobody is going to tell them they can't do that anymore. On any given day the AARP lobby can kick Congress' ***. I would guess that even if gas went to $8/gal here the the RV retired crowd would figure a way to budget it. That's the American way; rob Peter to pay Paul and worry about it later. You can't force a 'green' conscience on America; it has to evolve, make some people mega rich and make total sense to the rest of us.

Kevin

 

Hi Kevin,

I see that you are a vocal ambassador for the "American" way!

I am conversant with all you say and I agree that there will be much "blood" before the move is accomplished BUT the change has started.

I'm not "Green". In fact I believe that a large portion of the Green agenda is about commercial advantage.

However, I loathe waste. In addition I not convinced by the apparent connection between CO2 emissions (from autos) and global warming but it is clear that things (climate) are changing whether as a consequence of natural inputs or man.

In the mean time I choose to be "responsible". I continue to run "gas guzzlers" which managed to evade the new taxes by being "too old".

Time will tell which argument prevails, but I continue to believe that America is moving towards the "green" direction, with all that that implies, with increasing speed and inertia.

So going full circle.
Why were you so interested in fuel consumption if indeed it is an irrelevance?
I suggest cost is beginning to impact even America's pocket book and be aware that the UK recently reached 10USD/US Gall (2.0USD to GBP conversion)

Interesting discussion.

Stuart

 

Stuart,
I'm not a self-proclaimed ambassador of anything, I'm just giving you hard facts of what I observe and what makes most American males tick.;-) I never said fuel consumption was "irrelevant", In fact I'm doing my part to minimize my 'carbon footprint'. My refuse waste is nearly zero (unlike my neighbors), I bring my own bag to the grocery store, I don't buy anything but recyclable bottles/cans, keep my house temp yr around barely at the comfort level of sanity and I don't drive just to drive.....well, that's not exactly true, because I have a big motorcycle I ride for pure fun.;-) There wouldn't be global warming (that is, if it was/is caused by man), if everybody with vehicles were as responsible as me. Granted there are people MUCH more **** about their carbon footprint than me, but in most cases, they have families and therefore making a HUGE carbon footprint no matter what they do-way more than me. I'm not insinuating there shouldn't be families, of course, but 'Socker Mom' riding around in her newer Yukon (by herself most of the day), making superfluous trips, sucking on Starbuck coffee and talking on a cell phone, is a prime example of wasted energy. It's actually more of a 'waste' than that, but I don't want to get into it here.;-)

Personally, I'm gearing towards vehicles that give over 25 miles to the gallon. I stated earlier that my MB gives routinely 25-27mpg and the old Olds gives 30mpg. Even hot-rodding around on my bike, I get over 45mpg. Where I draw the line is at comfort and style. I think you can have both without resorting to the little crappy econoboxes. Simple physics dictates that if a car/truck of larger mass collides with a car of smaller mass, you most probably have death to the occupant(s) of the smaller car. It doesn't matter how many airbags the smaller car has, if there is nothing but a glob of steel and composite plastics left, someone dies in the smaller vehicle. If it comes down to (and it won't in my lifetime) the econobox or nothing, then I'll just ride my MC yr around and pull some little crappy trailer to the store. I've got a better chance on a MC (if I'm thrown clear), then trapped in a little deathbox cage (cage=a term motorcyclists use here for autos). Honestly, some of those cars should come with their own funeral wreaths.

I don't think you're getting the full picture here; there is a split between those who live in huge American cities and those of us that live rural. Living rural, we can do whatever we want. The majority of Americans do NOT live in big cities. If you took a hundred cites here and gave each a population of 1 million, that would only be a third of the total population and there aren't a hundred US cites with 1 million. A dozen or so have more, most have less. I haven't been required to have my cars inspected or comply with EPA emission regs in over 30 yrs....just because of where I choose to live. Nobody is gonna come bulldozing in from the Feds and tell rural people how and what they are gonna drive. And short of sending the National Guard in to enforce things, it ain't gonna happen. Here in rural America you will routinely see all manor of jacked up, redneck trucks that get about 8mpg (or less). Diesel truck owners brag about better mileage, but if there is a way to turn up their pump, gain more hp (and thus less mileage), they will. The rednecks didn't get into big diesel trucks for the economy of it, it was the noise, cost and status. They'll put a yrs paycheck (or more) into those trucks. There's a reason for that, but again, I don't want to get into it here, other than it has to do with severe ***** 'image' issues. Granted, high gas/diesel prices will dampen their enthusiasm some, but if there is any way to pay for it by robbing from their kids' college fund, or their wives' paycheck, they will.

We WILL see accelerated 'green' change in our bigger cities-the major polluters. No doubt, because you can't even even breathe there if you're visiting. I think you have to destroy your lungs first before you can tolerate their air. But with all that said, that doesn't keep any of us (in rural settings) from visiting those place with our own autos, or flying there and using their mass transit network. We're a long way from having road blocks to keep rural cars out of the city. Remember my 'money trail' comment(?), tourism can make or break some cities.

So yeah, you'll see token change in the huge metropolis', but that doesn't necessarily reflect greater America. Honestly, they DO need to clean up their act.

 

while a spirited and relavant discussion here the fact remains that cars are cars and MPG is MPG...they are just as the manufacturer made them. Indeed, if the automobile only achieves 20 MPG from the factory that is the best you can expect. Driving habits count to a certain extent, no question, however they will not override the long run outcome. Cliff

 

2002 E320. I got a story to add and THIS IS NO JOKE. My wife and I drove out to Massachusetts to visit some of her Sorority sisters from College. On the way out there my 02 E320 got NO LIE 35MPG on the highway. It has the 3.2 V6 GASOLINE Motor.The trunk had 4 bags in itand the A/C was on about half way and my wife and I in the car.

 

Cliff,
You're correct in the sense that there will not be major leaps in gas mileage over what the factory designed and delivered on any one particular stock, car. That being said, my ex was getting about 22mpg on this wagon. I remember getting much better when I first bought it. I found four vacuum lines on the top of the motor severed by a pulley. I tied these four back together (I have no idea what they are yet, but they go to some solenoids on the passenger wheel well) and 'my' mileage has been consistently over 25mpg in town and 27mpg on the hwy-I didn't drive it with the lines severed, so I have no personal baseline. That's quite a difference from what she was getting, but then probably I'm just bringing the car more back to factory spec.

Tire pressure and driving habits can account for some slight gains and/or slight losses, but nothing earth-shattering as you say. Back in the days of strictly carbs, there were all kinds of snail-oil salesmen offering 'special' magnets and can type gizmos that they 'guaranteed' would give you significant gas mileage gains. I don't see them around much anymore with computer driven, fuel-injection systems.

There has been so much time & engineering put into the typical gas, internal combustion engine, that I think we've about hit the wall in revolutionary changes. I was always especially enamored with the Wankle design and development. Power to weight ration is phenomenal. They never sounded like a sports car, but then that might have been possible with four and five chamber engines. It just couldn't seem to overcome 'tradition' and all the mechanics out there that just know conformity.....pity. The typical internal combustion gas engine has it roots in steam engines of lore-linear motion to be converted into rotary motion-very dated concept!;-)

Kevin

 

C280 Sport...how are you calculating your gas mileage, with a calculator or onboard device? If the latter, you need to do it at the pump with a hand calculator. I'm not calling you a 'liar', just curious if the 'old way' will give you the same results as some onboard device. I don't know how much your car weighs and what is typical for mileage-what are the factory figures for your car?

Kevin