opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

Greetings all diesel experts... I humbly ask your opinion on this matter. I'm looking to acquire either a 1983 240D or a 1984 300SD currently on the local market. I intend to eventually run biodisel mix with SVO or SVO.
1983 240D $1700
147k miles, haven't driven it yet. Body and interiror in relatively good shape. Ill probably drive this one this weekend.
1984 300SD $1200
137k miles, seems to have maintained engine strength, no prob with transmission going up hill. Body needs some work with rust/dents. Sterring groans when turning hard.
I live in Hawaii, a plan to run a single tank. Any known problems or mechanical thigns I should look out for when I take a look at these cars?
I would greatly appreciate any opinion!
Thanks

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

While I am certainly not a lawyer, I feel the legality question has not been adequately answered by the lawmakers. Seems to be mostly based on the Gov't getting the taxes. Also, I am not a diesel mechanic in any way, but I have learned a ton about the day to day nuts and bolts on the 4 MBs I have had. AND, not having seen either car, I am only answering with a broad brush. Disclaimers done, I think you would be happier with the performance of the 300 (with our without the S). I have had two 240s and just (last night) bought a second 1980 300SD w/only 47k original, one owner miles. Amazing. Anyway. There is no comparison on the performance front. The 300 excells. Also, seems to me Hawaii can be a bit hilly, which will not help your cause w/the 240. One personal note on the 1981 and newer 300sd--they seem to be more difficult to maintain (read that as more effort to keepit all working)due to the additional luxury features they possess: climate control functions, electric seats, sunroof (?), etc. However, I loved my base 240 w/rollup windows and no sunroof, so what do I know.

As far as WVO/SVO: two tank is the best way to preserve your car's engine. Forgive me for saying this, but if you used a one tank conversion (and I have for many miles) and got 2 years and 30k miles out of the car...then you could replace it with another carusing the money you saved NOT buying a two tank conversion. Never mind the fuel savings. I have now out'ed myself. If you created your own two tank system, it would be a huge cost saving vs purchasing a commercial available system, obviously. Have fun, be safe, and do your due diligence for the laws governing the use of WVO. There are tons of sites out there that help you wade through the legalities...just do a Google search.

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

I've run WVO in all my vehicles for years (legal in Indiana). Go with the 300 turbo diesel. The boost you get from the turbo is well worth it.
Two tank systems are better for engine longevity and having two fuel systems has saved me on many occasions. ;)

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

I live in CA so temperature is not a problem. It does get cold in winter morning and I need to crank my car a few times to start. I am running on WVO with one tank conversion. I cannot see any problem with 1 tank if you live in warm climate. My car is a 83 300 Turbo Diesel. I bought it with305,000 miles and I use a glow plug type heater to heat the oil to temperature and then the coolant takes over after the engine is running. It seems to serve the purposes. I spent about 150 bucks on the kit. I have done over 2000 miles after the conversion and I do not see any problems. May be it is early day yet.

I am planning of adding an extra heat exchanger when I convert a higher end MBZ. Elsbett also got a 1 tank conversion kit, albeit it is more expensive then just a similar dual mode heater I use for now. I think filtering good wvo is the key. :)

Good luck.

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

Why is it illegal to use on public roads?

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

Sorry and to answer that original question. I would go with the SD also. More power on the hills and you might get a little more for your money. Though, do you work on your own car? or some?

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

Ok, I am knew at this.

What is the difference between SVO and WVO?

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

Wait, then what is Bio-diesel ? (is that vegi mixed in with normal diesel ? )

I was on a thread with one guy who swore he has run like 25,000 miles on the WVO. Do you think that is not true?

I assume it must start to plug up the fuel injectors? or maybe even the fuel injector pump?

What are your thoughts? I was thinking of buying the conversion kit (ie: the spare tank that holds the vegi oil).

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

I have used WVO on my vehicles for 5 years. 120,000 miles total. If you know what you're doing it's fine.

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

ps. SVO has been shown to leech the copper out of engine alloys. This greatly reduces your engine life over what it could be.

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

This is news to me. Learn something new every day. I would like to read the original reference, do you remember where you saw it?

As you can probably tell from my post, I am not a big proponent of using odd fuels. In the one hand, save a buck a gallon on fuel, and on the other hand, maybe lose a $10,000 engine. No brainer. But leeching copper out, that's big.

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

Doug, I posted the reference in another thread a few weeks back.

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

I tried looking at your posting titles, and tried searching them for "copper" and "leech" with no luck. Do you remember where it was? Thanks.

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

doug,

here it is:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4022579/vegetable-oil-as-fuel

I went back and reread the portion and now I'll take my foot out of my mouth. I had it backwards. It's not that the fuel damages alloys, but copper (and I'm assuming they don't mean alloys) used for plumbing in a VO system catalyses and damages the fuel.

Sorry for any confusion or alarm.

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

ya def go with a 2 tank kit or correctly manufactured biodiesel.
true biodiesel is veg oil that has been reacted with methanal to remove the fats from it. true biodiesel is the best for your car and won't cause nearly any problems.
i live on oahu and there is multiple places to buy it. pacific biodiesel sellsB-100 at the76 on nimitz and sand island andB-20 at the 7-11 in aina haina and on piikoi and king. i heard they just started selling it in kaneohe too. there is a place on maui and lots of home brewers on big island.
i drive a 240d and it works but the 300 is def the way to go if you cross any mountan passes freq.

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

"I know some of you on here will hate me and tell me it will destroy my car."

Ron,

I can't hate you. I never met you and you're probably a pretty nice guy. Even though I strenuously object to putting anything but diesel or commercial biodiesel through these cars, the bottom line is that it's your car.

Happy motoring! I hope you enjoy the car so much that after you grenade the engine, you want another Benz and are content to use the fuel it was made for so it lasts for many, many years. :)

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

"no paying for fuel"

Where do you get your fuel? I can buy veg oil wholesale and it is not too expensive, but no real savings over pump diesel. Do you run around to all the burger joints and get it from them? Around here (DC area) they are no longer giving it away.

I have looked at making biodiesel. Takes a big tank, some heaters, methanol and lye and stuff. Probably not the best for a guy like me who got a C in chemistry. Did you decide that this was too much expense? I would think that it would be better to process the oil myself and leave the car alone.

I don't mean any of this as criticism! The 240 Dog is a fine car and you will have many happy miles and smiles. My first MB was a 180 gas engine, but since I have driven nothing but Dogs (diesels). Currently have a 99 that will likely outlive me.

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

Fifteen thousand- yikes:D

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

There is actually a division of police on a special assignment in Australia that are solely trying to track down vegetable oil burners because they are evading federal fuel tax. In the States to my knowledge there has not been an legislative action by the government in attempt to tax burners of vegetable oil. As for the EPA, there is so much SH*T put into the atmosphere everyday from things ranging from nuclear plants to gasoline, it is almost an ethical responsibility do something about emissions. With vegetable oil reducing emissions from the tailpipe 90-95 percent compared to diesel, I am sold. With the simple fact the Rudolf Diesel designed the engine specifically to run on vegetable oil because he understood noted the sustainability, I am sol. The EPA is a government agency, you do not want to publicly go against a government agency by telling people you are running vegetable oil?

I am converting to run vegetable oil on a two tank system.

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

Reduced sulfur content is simply a straw man. Burning waste or vegetable/plant oils is actually worse for the environment. You have increased CO and CO2 emissions as well as decreased gas mileage and lower performance. You get an increased carbon build up in your engine and it also damages your lubricating oil necessitating more frequent changes.

It's not a "green" fuel by any means. The only reason you're doing it is because it's fashionable.

Someone who truly thought "green" would stick with diesel and not destroy another engine.

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

Ron-

Brass is an alloy containing copper.

It is true that no car is technically "green", but veggie cars are actually even less so. This is exacerbated by sending it to an early grave just because you want a supposedly cheaper fuel.

I did a fair amount of reading and it seems the CO and CO2 levels (as well as unburnt hydrocarbons) are strongly dependent on pre-heating. The lower your preheating temperature, the worse your emissions. The best emissions were obtained heating to a temperature of 180F. At this point, the CO and CO2 levels were better than for commercial diesel and bio-diesel. Anything less than 150F and you get worse emissions. These results are only for SVO, not for WVO. I wonder how many of those systems are actually capable of heating all the incoming fuel to greater than 150F.

But, I could also always fall back on the old argument that since SVO and WVO have never undergone the appropriate EPA testing, they are inherently illegal to use as a road fuel in the US.

RE: opinion needed: 1983 240d vs 1984 300sd for svo conversion
 

Ron,

I'll have to get back to you on that.:D

Just bought a 85 300D with a WVO two tank system. Also came with an 84 parts car that had a thrown rod, no WVO. Payed a whopping 1 k for both. car has 260k but a new tranny new turbo and the reason it was for sale was due to the inability of the previous owner to get the VO system to run reliably. For those argueing the pros and cons of VO first ralize that diesel is just aged VO, and diesel and tubines will run on most combustable fluids if the injectors are set corredctly. Heating VO is the key (only took me 2 days and some inulation to accomplish) and fuel temp at injector pump is 180-190, inline thermocoupler. Burns cleaner-new co and co2 instead of fossilized- and a more complete burn than diesel because of temp therefore no carbon buildup as well as no ph increase in the lubricating oil. The reason that I would suggest a two tank system is BECAUSE of diesels impuitys. The impuities actually coat the cylinders during shut down which allows lubrication to stick to the parts. heated VO and biodiesel are excelent solvents and wash all lubrication from the cyl. walls thus shortening the engine life. For those worried about breaking the laws you can talk to your local ag extension office and find the taxable rate for over the road diesel and pay the difference for your use (volenteering the tax) for the amount of fuel usage. Finally the EPA only tests for tolerable levels and offers restrictions on usage, not banning (you can still use DDT if you pay the EPA tariffs) and according to them water requires an MSDS sheet.
If you are not mechanically inclined or just want a turn key and forget car anykind of older diesel or gas MB should be avoided. They are play pretties and should be treated as such. They will only last for ever if you take great care of them.

79 280CE
85 300D Turbodiesel
IH diesel 730000miles when I sold her.

I would love to post my sources and information, which are very reliable and extensive, however I am not going to waste my time because you are obviously unable to change your mind. You seem to be one of those people who is "always right." Don't worry I won't post again, all questions can be answered by you. My guess however, is that all your sources are restricted to those published by like minded individuals as yourself. You read what you want to believe and avoid what might disagree with you. I am not going to argue with you and will not ask your advice. However, before you so blandly dismiss others posts as flat wrong, maybe you should take off your company line blinders. The ad at the bottom of your posts tells everyone where you stand, you love diesel, we get it. Some of us, however enjoy more than the status quo and wish to progress beyond what is easy.

Comparative Study of Engine Performance by Using Different Bio-Fuels. European Journal of Scientific Research
Experimental Investigation of Methyl Esters of Non-Edible Oils as Biodiesel on C.I. EngineInternational Journal of Materials Science
Red diesel cost sparks a move to HOME-GROWN FUEL. Farmers Weekly
The effect of two different kinds of vegetable oil on combustion and emission characteristics of a vehicle dimethyl ether engine. Proceedings of the Institution of Mechanical Engineers -- Part D -- Journal of Automobile Engineering
These should be a good place to start for emission

Please quote the relevant passages from those articles, because everything I read says the only appreciable benefit to biodiesel is decreased CO. In every other regard it is inferior. Fuel consumption increases, peak power decreases, NOx increases. And that's just bio-diesel, not WVO. WVO will destroy your engine.

I Did two years worth of research before I started my WVO experiment. Once again I point out that you dismiss anything you don't agree with. I am not going to argue with you because basically I can't learn anything from you. It was a European journal and if you read the article they defined biodiesel as any oil processed from a live vegetable source. The study also had nothing to do with "standards" for over road vehicles. My point is that you seem to attack and name call anyone who disagrees with you. The subject change into sustainablity was a nice touch and totally unrelated. My point is that spreading fear or name calling is not very civil and furthers nothing. WVO is not the optimum fuel to use but it is what I have to work with on my project. Unless you are willing to put in the required maintenance and be vigilant about things such as valve clearances, oil changes, fuel system maintenance, and sundry other things that come with running alternate fuels-- don't do it. That being said I don't think name calling and flat refusal of another point of view is helpful. If you want to turn the key and go then WVO/SVO/VO is not for you. However if they are willing to do the leg work (and this includes manually paying the fuel excise taxes) then I don't think you should dissuade them. If I could I would prefer to use biomass reclaim oil or algae produced fuel but as I said those options are not available to me. There are several hearty plants that show great promise. Were is the down side of a family farmer using 20 acres to grow a plant that would produce all the fuel needed to run his farm equipment for a year? Anyway as I said I don't care one way or another what you or anyone else does with their personal vehicles. As for me I will continue with my WVO 300D that is high maintenance because that is how I choose it. My last thing is that the co2 level on the planet earth was 10 to 35% higher during the time diesel was formed. It was locked up in the oil and remained under ground. The co2 in the VO was in the air last year and is being returned this year, therefore not "fossilized." Just for the record every time you buy a petroleum product it puts money in my pocket, so by all means keep buying it.

svo
 

how difficult is it to mix and what do you mix with?(am also new to the biodiesel but interested)